Should (How should) Snap! be more popular, etc

this proves that you don't know anything about scratch
it's not very well known, especially to newer users and generally younger users, but the scratch team's reputation is being torn to pieces by the things they do

  1. there's people going around and falsely reporting popular user's profiles and projects
  2. the scratch team bans users for random, non-existent problems they cause (not from false reporting)
  3. along with false reporting, groups of people basically become scratch's bunch of internet terrorist because they plan on mass reporting users like griffpatch, wil_wam, etc.
  4. there's users on the site that roam free and ruin everything... users like paddler are making bots to mass report people and spam links on profiles, and who are doing genuinely terrible stuff that could probably get you arrested if it happens enough (so basically, people who do actually terrible stuff get to walk across the site freely)

and sadly, i bet most of the community that actively uses the platform doesn't know at all

I didn't learn about git until years after I started programming.
(I started programming with FORTRAN '77, though...)

If you don't want to compile things you could start with interpreted/scripting languages, with GUI libs and a visual IDE.

The point isn't to get popular. The point is to make a cool PL.

I know that some kids at my little brothers' school don't even know you can write code on Scratch. They think it's just a gaming platform the school district forgot to block.

I'd hate for Snap! to go the same way.

I came here because I wanted to try out first-class procedures, but I didn't want to learn (lots of (infuriating (silly)) parentheses)

You could use a userscript @ego-lay_atman-bay made.

This seems phrased a bit rudely, but IDK.

You know society's bad when these days kids think Scratch is not a programming website but a "games" website or some socializing thing. :cry:

dude people use scratch projects for unblocked game sites
i've seen timmccool's among us remake and griffpatch's getting over it remake in unblocked game websites

But that's NOT the point of Scratch! They don't market themselves as a Cool Math Games type of website. The reason why Snap! isn't...well...as vibrant as Scratch with comments and likes and crap is because we don't care about it! We don't want to turn into Scratch - a "Cool Math Games" Substitute, we want to teach Coding.

This who-haa is breaking us all up, look, Snap! Devs may not want Snap! to become the "social media website" that Scratch has devolved into (you saw with bluebaritone21's example, HOPEFULLY) but that doesn't mean that they don't care.

This is one of the comments I used for my statement just up there.

Blud is this a gag or something?

Sorry. I combined that post with my main one. I just don't like (this post was deleted by its author).

Oh okay.

Even though it says that, after you delete it, and it seems like the post doesn't actually delete, it actually does delete the post. After some time, the post gets removed.

Thank you. I didn't know that!

[Copied from original thread]

Eh?

I don't think that's objectionable. It wasn't calling someone names, it was just expressing astonishment. If it had something else instead of "fudge" (e.g., "hot chocolate" :~) ) then maybe.

But, without using any specific bad words, some of the comments in this conversation do verge on calling people names:

Please everyone try to discuss the issues, not the personalities.

No, sorry.


Look:

  1. We know that we need more ways for users to communicate.

  2. Other things are higher priority right now, so it's not going to happen soon, but it is going to happen.

  3. We are nervous about it because (a) we don't have staff time for moderation, and (b) we think that social media are not just stupid but evil, that the whole business of likes and follows and all that is deliberately designed to make people think emotionally rather than rationally so that they'll click more links and sell advertising. But see point 1 above.

  4. Why isn't Snap! more popular? Just as we don't want you to engage in popularity contests, we don't want to, ourselves, either. We'll never be anywhere near as popular as Scratch because, to a first approximation, every primary school on Earth teaches Scratch, and also because programming computers isn't most kids' main hobby interest, and Scratch meets their needs, and that's fine. I think the Snap! community may be a little intimidating because everyone wants to talk about λ calculus (yay!) or about JavaScript (boo!).

  5. There's nothing terrible about the occasional offtopic remark. (I'm not talking about deliberate hijacking of a thread to turn it into a different thread. That's kind of nasty.) I've been known to make offtopic remarks myself, even. 0:~) But if we all do that on every thread, it becomes impossible to read the actual on-topic stuff. That's why it has to be against the rules. I do think stuff like

(not consecutive) doesn't add that much to the discussion, compared to how much scroll space it takes up.
6. Assume good faith.

Umm. I don't know how old you are (and please don't reply by posting your age here) but I'm guessing that I was using prerelease versions of Scratch before you were born.

That doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong about the underlying issues, but you really should find a more plausible way to insult me.

But it's quite true that I'm not up on the latest Scratch gossip. For the sake of argument I accept that there are people who behave badly in the Scratch community, as in your points 1, 3, and 4. (About point 3, if I'm not mistaken, griffpatch is an adult and is not very likely to get in trouble with Scratch regardless of what bad actors may say about him/her/them. I'm not familiar with wil_wam.)

But I'm not going to believe your point 2, the only one that's really relevant to what I said, without a lot more fact-checkable detail.

1. IS SNAP COMPLETE?

It is kind of not perfect. Including the source code. It has bugs. Bug reports I did a few months ago here in forum were not fixed, nor indicated of being reviewed-solved. Not like it is much of an issue, but i believe there are other bug reports that aren't going to be solved in a while, if they even will. I don't get it. Don't you guys have more devs than just bh or jens? I always see them answering to some questions, but never other people. Don't you guys have a guy in the team that would specifically look into bugs and reply to bug reports that the issue will be reviewed etc?

Can we name a single REALLY stable version of Snap? Was it 8.0? Or 6.9.2? Or 5.0? You see, even though scratch sucks in some things, it is stable. You won't get an error on something, you won't get your project not being loaded over saving local block in a variable.

By "kind of not perfect" i do not mean bugs only. The Snap! itself doesn't look quite well:

  • It still has low res, weird looking blocks in help explanations. Not even for all blocks. (guys when you add a new block, it takes, i believe, around 15 minutes to make an explanation for it, and it will help a lot of users who don't understand how certain block works). Can you let the community active users to rework on Help? Not changing the explanations, but the way they look. Also for example set variable block does not have anything about LIST inside of it, nor LIST has anything about set variable. Which sucks, cuz, find me funny, i couldn't understand how to set a list after coming to Snap! from Scratch. I was like "where is my create list block???". I think there are a lot of blocks that can have more advanced explanations as newer versions of Snap! have more features for some blocks.
Example

  • It still has old weird looking costumes for kids, and same for sounds and backgrounds. They even never actually got updated much. I never used them. I didnt even know they exist until recently, as the buttons for them are kinda hidden.. They just take much of a space when downloading the source :sweat_smile:
Example

image

  • The editor looks old. I actually like the editor, but it is just associated with my weird love towards skeuomorphism. But yeah, it is old, you can actually see it by turning off retina display support, which will look exact like Snap! 4.0.6 (in which we got both sections resizing) just darker. Clicking sound is from Windows 95. Even the Snap! logo is blurry. No matter how much you like the editor, you can't deny than a lot of people might not like it. Kids, who like simple designs as Scratch. Programmers that like dark simple designs. After all you guys are here in forum, which means you use Snap! Meaning that you are already okay with it. So you will probably be like "well i like it!".
  • I already talked about Snapinator a few months ago. I think it was introduced in 4.0? And it never was updated. Like. Seriously? This is one of the cool features because it allows us translate Snap! code to anything else. The problem is that updates broke it. Multiple inputs operators can't be used with codification, and local blocks too. It sucks because it basically broke some of old projects that used operator primitives for code translation. And i just wonder how many broken projects because of the updates there are? A few months ago for a scratch-c project we used Snap! with Snapinator (i know it really wasnt a great idea), to generate c code using codification. I also have unfinished codification library that fixes multiple inputs and local variables, also adds automatic translations with no manual mapping, using label of the block (it is for c++ though, but i guess i can add presets). It is on pause cuz of performance issues. As it has to check all blocks using split and search in nested lists, which is not that fast. I just wish Snapinator was fixed and more advanced by default.
My unfinished library

All that just makes Snap! experience weird, but the main question, is Snap! really a complete product?

2. WHAT IS SNAP! FOR?

Let's think on Snap! like a programming language for ordinary users. Why we are always are limited in stuff because of "child grooming" concerns. Why we can't have our own discord server as other programming languages. Why can't we make communication bots. Why can't we make a chat using Snap! If Snap! is not for kids then why?

Anyway. My actual question is what Snap! is for? Is it for making games? Is it for making apps? Or is it for... MATH?

Hold on Snap! users. I know how much you like it to work on mathematical stuff and etc, but let's think on Snap! like a programming language for ordinary users, NOT math geeks.

Almost all extensions are related to math. We don't get much about graphics, and other stuff that would make game or apps development easier and more efficient than in Scratch. In fact i think anyone that wants to make a game or app in block based programming language, is better to use Turbowarp with its extensions.

Snap! more seems like a thing, don't find this offensive please, for nerds. The situation is that opening Scratch main page, you see many colorful projects. While in Snap! main page you see some weird stuff.

Example


Look. I don't have anything against Snap! as it seems. I like it. Those are just my schizo concerns.

No, of course not, it'll never be complete. There's so much we want to do! Add logic programming, for example. Right now the biggest thing going on isn't so visible in Snap! itself, but rather in extensions such as Turtlestitch: We're developing an extension mechanism that will allow such programs to stay up to date with Snap! itself.

Our team:

Paid by SAP to work on Snap! (including curriculum, videos, workshops, talks at conferences, etc., so not full-time developers): Jens, Jadga, Bernat.

Paid by other people for full-time non-Snap! work, but squeezing in contributions when they can: Michael, Joan.

Retired, would do more if more energy: me.

That's it, six of us. The following is an oversimplification, but to a first approximation, our main tasks are these:

Jens: Snap! itself.
Jadga: curriculum, topic of the month, Snap!Con
Bernat: Web site, interfacing with Arduino, Pi, etc.
Michael: Cloud, security, services for teachers
Joan: design review
me: documentation, libraries, herding you lot ;~)

But everyone does a little of everything, the above notwithstanding.

So, the main point is, no, we're not exactly drowning in developers. Gotta say, this is partly because that's how Jens prefers it; he views Snap! itself as his baby, not as a huge distributed effort. We've been more open to collaboration on other stuff, such as libraries and the web site.

I totally agree about the unresolved bug reports. Some of them have been superseded by big rewrites that removed the buggy code as a side effect, but a lot remain current. We do fix things slowly but steadily.

Please be careful to distinguish actual bugs from disagreements with elements of the design. Nobody has the time or the inclination to make skins/themes for the editor or the website. Sorry.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by a stable version. I think we've been pretty good about things like supporting old projects and not just randomly crashing. With 9.0 there were a few problems that showed up as soon as people other than us used it, which is why there have been a dozen 9.0.n releases up to the current 9.1.0.

We have a mechanism for creating uniform and readable help screens. We are slowly migrating to vector costumes (although also adding Meghan Taylor's gorgeous watercolor costumes, uniquely ours). We know about the slow loading of the choosers for costumes etc., and we know how to fix it too, but someone has to get around to it. I agree that that should maybe be higher priority than it's been. But, honestly, you want different costumes? Go for it! You can load pretty much any picture file into Snap!.

Snapinator was written by a high school kid and then rewritten by another high school kid. I think we'd be totally open to someone else taking that on. Snapp! was also an external product, although done by an adult; it would be great if someone wanted to update it.

Snap! 's core purpose is to help teenagers learn computer science, both in school and independently. When we're not sure if we're doing the right thing, that's where we focus our attention. That focus has two parts to it. The more straightforward one is that we want to be a super powerful programming language. First class procedures, lists, and sprites are the central ideas in this area. We've added first class continuations, costumes, sounds, and databases/spreadsheets as two-dimensional lists. Hyperblocks give us very efficient multi-dimensional array support. The other part of our teaching mission is the one we inherit from Scratch: using visual program elements to make the big ideas accessible to beginners. My paradigmatic example is the idea of program as data. Someone who's never seen that idea before, but who knows what Scratch blocks look like and knows what Scratch lists look like can see a picture like
shapelist
and just immediately get it, in a way that no amount of explanation could match.

But that doesn't mean Snap! isn't also for other things. Yes, games. Yes, math. Yes, kids.

Sigh. I'm pretty sure I've answered this 20 or 30 times. If this were the 20th century we could be looser about this, but the entire world is paranoid about protecting children from low-probability risks and we don't have the resources to fight that battle. I don't like it any better than you do. It would be much better, in my personal opinion, if they worried instead about high-probability risks such as child malnutrition, child malaria, or children's houses being bombed. BUT, discords and bots have nothing to do with the Snap! programming language! The purpose of Snap! certainly isn't to provide a social network for programmers. You want to make a Discord or a subreddit or something about Snap!, just don't tell us, make sure it says in big letters that it's not official, and don't advertise it here. And for the love of god don't arrange f2f meetings with strangers without an adult present.

There are actually many people contributing - code! - to Snap!. So many, that Snap! is among the top 10% open source projects with the largest development team.

https://openhub.net/p/snapbuild-your-own-blocks/factoids

This can sometimes be a problem for me, because I need to decide how much time I'd like to spend reviewing other people's - often unsolicited - pull requests, or actually get work done myself. In general I greatly prefer to work with people I know and trust to be competent working with a large and sophisticated code base such as Snap than to disappoint teenagers proud of mastering curly baces :slight_smile:

will_wam is a college student. He is studying at BYU.

We don't need our own Discord. In fact I requested a Reddit for Snap! which failed (not because the mods flagged it down but because everybody was comfortable just being on the Forums).

TL;DR It sucked and no one joined. Why bother making stuff like our own Discord if we have a stable Forums site for, well, communication?

Scratch has its own comments tool on every project (you know it as well as I do) and guess what? People abuse that system. Right now I'm dealing with some dude who keeps calling some other dude a dumb[BLANK] (but replace the a-word at the end with @'s and $ symbols) to bypass the swear word filter detector thing.

Oh wow you're so smart :roll_eyes: Censor yourself to bypass the filter is so funny and smart (not talking about you, don't worry)

I've been reporting that comment for around...2 days (they're still arguing after this much time) and Scratch Team doesn't delete the comment. The guy who made the project doesn't seem to care, which adds insult to injury!

lmao